An Interview with Sarah Broderick, Instructor
Conducted by Mike Lambert
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Editor’s Note: Sarah Broderick, a recent graduate of San Francisco State University's Masters Program in Creative Writing, led a unique writing class for 16 OLLI at SF State students this past summer: Playing the Trickster: An Approach to Creative Writing. Here is an interview with Sarah where she explains the use of a trickster figure, either as an author, a narrator, or as a character. The interview was conducted by Mike Lambert, a neophyte OLLI at SF State student. |
Mike: I’m a senior citizen, Sarah, with quite a few miles on my chassis, and I never heard of Trickster figures before day one of the course. Tell us what a Trickster figure is in literature and writing.
Sarah: The mythological Trickster is a figure who creates mischief or disturbs order. Tricksters often exhibit a level of intelligence or foreknowledge greater than those surrounding them, but this is not always the case. Sometimes Tricksters stumble into making disruptions. Most important for our study, Tricksters often cross boundaries. These boundaries may be ‘tangible’ like the fence that divides a private home from public property or the very tangible division between life and death, or they may be ‘understood’ like the taboos we place on inappropriate versus appropriate behaviors.
People in the real world—and I’m including artists here even though they seem to be in a different world altogether at times—cannot be Tricksters. But they may perform the important cultural work of Tricksters through their artistic practices. This was what Lewis Hyde claimed in his book Trickster Makes This World, which I referenced a great deal in our class. Certain artists, especially those who have really made a mark and created a whole new way of looking at their particular art forms, go beyond simply being good at what they do. They often end up changing the way we define things and understand ourselves.
While myths’ lessons often depend on a trickster figure who shakes things up by strolling into town and challenging those rules that have gone unquestioned for perhaps too long, some of our most highly respected artists challenged what we define as ‘art,’ and through this, those divisions between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ used to make sense of our world. Like Tricksters in myth, these artists are clever and sometimes funny, strange, even dislikeable characters. Their strange and sometimes ‘out of nowhere’ behaviors and artistic practices encourage their audiences to think, reconsider, question, and feel anew. Artists like Pablo Picasso, Gertrude Stein, Marcel Duchamp, and John Cage definitely did things their own way and were even scorned and shunned by some. However, they each did something truly unique that changed the course of human artistic development.
Mike: Can you give us some examples of Trickster figures in folk tales and myth?
Sarah: Trickster figures may be found in myths and folktales from all over the world. Probably, we are most familiar with the anthropomorphized Coyote and Raven because of their popularity in American culture. I know many elementary school programs read Native American myths, and these characters are the ones often featured in those stories.
There are many others though—Hermes, Prometheus, Hare or Rabbit, Eshu, Anansi, Bala Krishna, Iktomi, Loki, to name a few.
Mike: Why do skilled writers resort to the use of Tricksters as either narrators or characters?
Sarah: I think there are several answers to this question.
I am sure some writers adapt or modernize a well-known or favorite myth because that’s simply something they want to do. Adapting or ‘stealing’ from other works is a more than acceptable way of finding inspiration and generating new material. We did this in our class with the Black folktale “Stagolee,” if you recall.
Others may simply take the traits of a trickster and insert them on a particular character. Or they may study a book that stresses the use of Jung’s archetypes in narrative or some such thing and decide they need a character like that to make it interesting or ‘mess things up.’
Mostly though, I imagine writers end up with characters or narrators in their work that resemble Tricksters as part of the work of storytelling. Many good stories depend on characters who wander into town and challenge the dominant order or approved way of doing things. You write enough stories, and you will certainly end up with a character that resembles a trickster.
Mike: Do the writers who use Tricksters tell us the ‘Truth,’ or are they just trying to fool us readers?
Sarah: Ha! I guess it depends on the writer. I’m not sure any good, honest writer sets out to deceive anyone. But in order to get readers outside of their own heads, they may use a certain level of ‘trickery’ in order to lead readers to a higher ‘Truth.’ As Shakespeare said via Touchstone in As You Like It, “The truest poetry is the most feigning.”
Mike: Are there any Tricksters in ‘real’ literature?
Sarah: There are many, many characters who exhibit the traits of the Trickster. One of my favorite examples is Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus. At first, Victor Frankenstein seems to exhibit the traits of the trickster by creating a living thing from dead tissue. Then, once that act is done, the monster torments and pleads with his creator, performing many trickster-like acts and posing questions in true trickster fashion. Like a lot of myths, this story and its characters have been adapted and altered again and again and again. Fascinating, huh?
Thank you for this question. I might encourage you to investigate one of your favorite books. Is there a character that seems to ‘get it’ even as others in the book don’t? Is there a character on the periphery, an outsider? He or she just might be a trickster figure.
Mike: Are there other forms of art that also use a ‘trickster’ technique?
Sarah: I don’t believe many artists, whether painters, architects, or writers, set out thinking they are going to be a trickster that day. Good art often does what Tricksters in myth do—challenges norms, disturbs order, and seems to possess some ‘secret knowledge’ or have something to say in a way that doesn’t just go right out and say it, which encourages its audience to think and feel. Artists who have made an impact often leap from what they have learned into the unknown stratosphere—some land gracefully, some don’t.
In our class, we investigated these artists and their practices so that we had yet another way of looking at art-making and writing.
Mike: Why should an amateur writer, like most of us OLLI students, experiment with the Trickster device?
Sarah: I’m unsure it’s a device as much as it’s a reminder and a practice. We practiced being a trickster-artist by studying different ways other artists did it as well as their controversial (at least of their time) forms and subject matters. I think any writer at any stage needs a reminder that there is no set way of doing things, and ‘stealing’ from other artists and art forms is more than fine. I know I do. Playing the Trickster is about taking risks and making big leaps in style and subject but also having fun and opening up more than closing in. It’s about trusting your gut and letting go more than testing for ‘good’ or ‘bad’ and ‘right’ and ‘wrong.’ To me, it’s more about writing (verb) instead of being a writer (noun). There, that’s better.
Mike: Thank you for your comments, Sarah. Maybe I will get up the courage to try some Trickster techniques in my future writing.
Sarah: The mythological Trickster is a figure who creates mischief or disturbs order. Tricksters often exhibit a level of intelligence or foreknowledge greater than those surrounding them, but this is not always the case. Sometimes Tricksters stumble into making disruptions. Most important for our study, Tricksters often cross boundaries. These boundaries may be ‘tangible’ like the fence that divides a private home from public property or the very tangible division between life and death, or they may be ‘understood’ like the taboos we place on inappropriate versus appropriate behaviors.
People in the real world—and I’m including artists here even though they seem to be in a different world altogether at times—cannot be Tricksters. But they may perform the important cultural work of Tricksters through their artistic practices. This was what Lewis Hyde claimed in his book Trickster Makes This World, which I referenced a great deal in our class. Certain artists, especially those who have really made a mark and created a whole new way of looking at their particular art forms, go beyond simply being good at what they do. They often end up changing the way we define things and understand ourselves.
While myths’ lessons often depend on a trickster figure who shakes things up by strolling into town and challenging those rules that have gone unquestioned for perhaps too long, some of our most highly respected artists challenged what we define as ‘art,’ and through this, those divisions between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ used to make sense of our world. Like Tricksters in myth, these artists are clever and sometimes funny, strange, even dislikeable characters. Their strange and sometimes ‘out of nowhere’ behaviors and artistic practices encourage their audiences to think, reconsider, question, and feel anew. Artists like Pablo Picasso, Gertrude Stein, Marcel Duchamp, and John Cage definitely did things their own way and were even scorned and shunned by some. However, they each did something truly unique that changed the course of human artistic development.
Mike: Can you give us some examples of Trickster figures in folk tales and myth?
Sarah: Trickster figures may be found in myths and folktales from all over the world. Probably, we are most familiar with the anthropomorphized Coyote and Raven because of their popularity in American culture. I know many elementary school programs read Native American myths, and these characters are the ones often featured in those stories.
There are many others though—Hermes, Prometheus, Hare or Rabbit, Eshu, Anansi, Bala Krishna, Iktomi, Loki, to name a few.
Mike: Why do skilled writers resort to the use of Tricksters as either narrators or characters?
Sarah: I think there are several answers to this question.
I am sure some writers adapt or modernize a well-known or favorite myth because that’s simply something they want to do. Adapting or ‘stealing’ from other works is a more than acceptable way of finding inspiration and generating new material. We did this in our class with the Black folktale “Stagolee,” if you recall.
Others may simply take the traits of a trickster and insert them on a particular character. Or they may study a book that stresses the use of Jung’s archetypes in narrative or some such thing and decide they need a character like that to make it interesting or ‘mess things up.’
Mostly though, I imagine writers end up with characters or narrators in their work that resemble Tricksters as part of the work of storytelling. Many good stories depend on characters who wander into town and challenge the dominant order or approved way of doing things. You write enough stories, and you will certainly end up with a character that resembles a trickster.
Mike: Do the writers who use Tricksters tell us the ‘Truth,’ or are they just trying to fool us readers?
Sarah: Ha! I guess it depends on the writer. I’m not sure any good, honest writer sets out to deceive anyone. But in order to get readers outside of their own heads, they may use a certain level of ‘trickery’ in order to lead readers to a higher ‘Truth.’ As Shakespeare said via Touchstone in As You Like It, “The truest poetry is the most feigning.”
Mike: Are there any Tricksters in ‘real’ literature?
Sarah: There are many, many characters who exhibit the traits of the Trickster. One of my favorite examples is Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus. At first, Victor Frankenstein seems to exhibit the traits of the trickster by creating a living thing from dead tissue. Then, once that act is done, the monster torments and pleads with his creator, performing many trickster-like acts and posing questions in true trickster fashion. Like a lot of myths, this story and its characters have been adapted and altered again and again and again. Fascinating, huh?
Thank you for this question. I might encourage you to investigate one of your favorite books. Is there a character that seems to ‘get it’ even as others in the book don’t? Is there a character on the periphery, an outsider? He or she just might be a trickster figure.
Mike: Are there other forms of art that also use a ‘trickster’ technique?
Sarah: I don’t believe many artists, whether painters, architects, or writers, set out thinking they are going to be a trickster that day. Good art often does what Tricksters in myth do—challenges norms, disturbs order, and seems to possess some ‘secret knowledge’ or have something to say in a way that doesn’t just go right out and say it, which encourages its audience to think and feel. Artists who have made an impact often leap from what they have learned into the unknown stratosphere—some land gracefully, some don’t.
In our class, we investigated these artists and their practices so that we had yet another way of looking at art-making and writing.
Mike: Why should an amateur writer, like most of us OLLI students, experiment with the Trickster device?
Sarah: I’m unsure it’s a device as much as it’s a reminder and a practice. We practiced being a trickster-artist by studying different ways other artists did it as well as their controversial (at least of their time) forms and subject matters. I think any writer at any stage needs a reminder that there is no set way of doing things, and ‘stealing’ from other artists and art forms is more than fine. I know I do. Playing the Trickster is about taking risks and making big leaps in style and subject but also having fun and opening up more than closing in. It’s about trusting your gut and letting go more than testing for ‘good’ or ‘bad’ and ‘right’ and ‘wrong.’ To me, it’s more about writing (verb) instead of being a writer (noun). There, that’s better.
Mike: Thank you for your comments, Sarah. Maybe I will get up the courage to try some Trickster techniques in my future writing.
Sarah Broderick holds an MFA in creative writing from San Francisco State University and an MA in Humanities & Social Thought from New York University. She greatly enjoys teaching creative writing and humanities courses when the opportunity arises. Currently, she is associate editor for an oral history book on Port-au-Prince, Haiti as well as at work on her first novel. She tweets @sebroderick on Twitter. Please feel free to reach out to her there.
